#017: Greg Neal

Announcer: 0:00

You're listening to The Groove with Devin Pense.

Devin Pense: 0:15

What's up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Groove Podcast, where we share people's stories from all walks of life who've experienced loss challenges in their personal and professional careers, and have overcome them all to find what I call the groove. I'm Devin Pence. I'm a director, executive producer, and for fun, a street photographer and the host of the Groove, I'm usually hanging out on Instagram at Devin Pence, and you can check out some of my video work@devinpence.com. My guest today is Greg Neal, a creative and marketing leader with over 30 years of experience in crafting award-winning marketing campaigns and brand strategies for cable and broadcast television. Greg has helped launch over nine television networks, including own the Oprah Winfrey Network, hgtv, and the PAC 12 networks, among others. He was also awarded broadcasting and Cable's brand Builder of the Year award for his creative leadership for Food Networks rebrand. And he's received over 75 creative awards throughout his career, including numerous promax, BDA, Telly New York Festival, and Addies as a credited writer or creative director. Greg is currently based in Dallas, Texas, where he leads the production team for one of Omnicoms agencies, the marketing arm, or tma, working with clients such as State Farm, Pero Ricard Advanced Auto, and Frito Lay. In addition to his corporate television career, he has started two successful businesses, core running company, a retail running specialty store located outside of Austin, Texas in gray scale, creative and entertainment and creative agency in Culver City, California. Today I'm gonna be talking to Greg about some of his experiences and launching lifestyle driven brands and his insights into the world of creative and marketing leadership in the entertainment industry. So, without further ado, let's get into the episode. Greg Neal, welcome to the Groove Podcast.

Greg Neal: 2:19

Uh, Devin, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Devin Pense: 2:22

I just wanna really kind of jump right into it. One thing that that excites me about this is this year I'm really starting to focus a lot more on, uh, creativity in general and how I think that everybody, you know, has some creativity built into them. So, and you're one of the most creative people I know, and so I'm happy to have you here today.

Greg Neal: 2:45

Well, thanks for, uh, thanks for saying that. I hope I live up to it and telling you a little bit about my<laugh> creative process. Of course, uh, as always. Yeah, but you're pretty creative too, so<laugh>.

Devin Pense: 2:57

Well, let's just jump into it then. Um, real quick, you know, ran down your resume. Very impressive. Tell us what you're up to now, what you're doing and, um, and we'll just start there.

Greg Neal: 3:09

Yeah, I mean, well, as you explained, I spent the majority of my career in creative positions in entertainment and media, television networks. But, uh, I'm doing something that's a little bit different now. It's, it's kind of in the same realm, but I work for an advertising agency called The Marketing Arm. We call it tma. It's owned by Omnicom, which is like a big advertising, uh, company that owns lots of agencies and we're one of their agencies. And I oversee the production, which is the making of the ads that we do. So it could be a TV commercial, it could be a print ad, it could be some photography, some packaging. Um, so we do a lot of different things and that's what I'm focusing on right now. So it's a little, it's a little bit different. I mean, it does touch on some of the same stuff, but it's a pretty cool experience cuz we work with really, really big, you know, fortune 500 companies and big brands and help execute, uh, you know, what they wanna do from a marketing and advertising perspective.

Devin Pense: 4:12

Yeah. So it sounds like you really, uh, kind of get your hands in, in a lot of different aspects of, of the creative process.

Greg Neal: 4:22

I mean, I do, and you know, maybe we'll talk about this a little bit, uh, upcoming is Yeah, it I do, but it's a little different. I mean, at an advertising agency, the, the, the positions in the work is a little bit more in silos. So there's kind of a team that hands one thing off to you and hands another thing. Whereas in my past positions, um, I've been involved in the, the creating and the making of it. Right now, I'd say it, it's creative, but in a different way. It's only on the making side, it's not necessarily on the conceptual side. So me and and my team, we have to figure out a creative solution to kind of execute an idea that's been given to us. So we're not always involved in the idea generation, which is what I really enjoy. Um, it's not to say I don't enjoy, uh, my role at tma, I do, it's just very, very different from the role I had in the past. But yeah, I mean there's absolutely creativity, um, involved in it. It's just cr applying the creative process kind of in a slightly different way.

Devin Pense: 5:26

There's a great chance that the majority of the people listening have seen television commercials that you and your team at TMA, the marketing arm has had something to do with. Can you name off a couple of your uh, big clients or is that, uh, proprietary kind of information?

Greg Neal: 5:47

No.<laugh> no, it's not at all. Um, yeah, I think, I mean, I think so. I mean, probably the one that people right now would know the most are the Jake from State Farm commercials. So we do all of those<laugh>, you probably see'em a lot. Maybe you see'em too much. I feel like maybe cuz we work on'em, like I feel like I see it every commercial break. Um, but that's kind of our big, um, our big client right now. We also do, um, you know, at least broadcast work for Advanced Auto Parts and diehard, so we did a really cool commercial last year with Bruce Willis kind of reviving the diehard role for diehard batteries, which was pretty cool. Um, we do some work for Papa Murphy's, which is a pizza chain, uh, Morgan Stanley, uh, Frito Lay, like the various divisions of Frito Lay.

Speaker 3: 6:38

So yeah, so I mean it's pretty, I mean it's pretty high profile stuff and um, a lot of people do get to see our work, which is pretty rewarding and especially when it's, you know, a part of a successful campaign to help our clients' business or help their awareness, which is really, you know, the most important thing is cuz we wanna try to strike a chord like in something that's culturally relevant that people talk about. Saturday Night Live just did a spoof on Jake from State Farm, uh, a couple of weeks ago, which is pretty cool. Oh yeah, I saw that. And you know, they're kind of spoof, they're kind of spoofing some of the commercials that we did, which is, you know, which we have a, it's not solely because of us, but we do have a, a small part in kind of building that cultural relevance. And of course, state Farm is great about, um, they have a great media plan, so you, you really do see their, their their work all over the place. So

Devin Pense: 7:28

That's pretty cool. Yeah. And by the time, uh, Saturday Night Live is, is kind of spoofing you, making fun of you, you know, that, that it's, uh, culturally relevant to something<laugh>,

Greg Neal: 7:37

You know, good or bad. Yes,

Devin Pense: 7:39

<laugh>. Yeah. And, and, and just to say, you know, if, if, I don't think, I don't know if it's still running, but the, you're talking about different departments and working with different departments and the ex the creativity, the ideation, uh, the pitching, uh, and then, you know, everything in between and then the execution. Uh, i, I just, the, the die hard with Bruce Willis was just, just in my my opinion, it was just brilliant. I just thought that was, uh, so great and that that won, that won quite a few awards. Did it, did it not?

Greg Neal: 8:12

Yeah, I got, so I got a lot of recognition and of course, you know, we had such a great team working on it. Uh, you know, we have a great, uh, head of, you know, chief Creative Officer Harris and, uh, John Suits, the director of that is, uh, uh, someone who actually used to work at our company and he's gone on to, you know, just direct some great stuff. And, uh, Matt Williams is was the producer on that who wor who works on my team and just a really great team and, um, that really came together. And, you know, we had everything from explosives to like<laugh>, you know, massive car crashes, which is, which is kind of funny. I mean, you, you are asking me, you know, you're referencing my, uh, what I call my former life. Uh, you don't have a lot of that in lifestyle TV networks where I worked, I mean, mean when I was working at Food Network or Oprah, there were no car crashes,<laugh> and Explosions. Well,

Devin Pense: 9:00

Not that we showed anyone Recording. There were some in the parking lot, but, and by the way, now that we've mentioned Harris's name, I'm probably gonna get a letter. He's probably gonna want some kind of royalty or something, but, uh, that's, that's a story for another time. Yes. Shout out to Harris Wilkinson. Uh, great guy. Um, so in, in that same kind of vein, uh, knowing that creativity is so subjective and it's so, um, a lot of times difficult to translate into quote unquote success, if you will, where everybody's happy about it. And I guess at the end, ultimately, you know, the client has to be happy. Um, can you talk about some of the challenges where, you know, there's a need, we need a commercial, we need this, and then give us some ideas and then, you know, having to walk all the way that, all the way through execution. I mean, you don't have to get so far in the weeds, but just in general.

Speaker 3: 9:59

Well, I think it starts with you have to have a good strategy. Um, you know, in the TV world it's a research department. In the advertising world, it's called strategy that creates a brief for you. And, um, you have to know who your audience is, you know, so the audience at Food Network, you know, might be very different than the audience for espn. So what works for ESPN may not work for Food Network. And I, and I remember when I was in my role at Food Network, I was the head of creative there and, you know, somebody would come in and part of my job was, you know, approving the creative and looking at scripts and things like that. And someone would come in with a really funny spot, and I I I would say now we, we have to rework it and they'd be, what do you mean that's really funny?

Greg Neal: 10:40

And I, I said, yeah, it's, it's funny, but like you have to kind of add the phrase, is it funny for Food Network? Mm-hmm. Like, is it our type of humor? And it's not. And so I think, you know, when in my current role when clients come to us, you know, we have to, we have to target, you know, who they are talking to for it and make it relevant with that particular audience. And that helps get you halfway up the mountain at least, because, you know, you kind of know then how to dive into kind of the creative process that might, um, appeal to that particular, you know, group. And, you know, you're absolutely right. It's subjective, it's, it's, you know, uh, I've said this so many times, like to be a great creative part of it's just having good taste. Like, you know, it's just kind of understanding what's cool. And some, some people do and some people don't. Everything from fashion to music to, you know, you just have to have like, you have to understand like what looks good and what goes together. And, you know, some people you're not going to, you know, and I know you know this too, you're not gonna please everybody with the work that you do. I mean, there will be people who say Avatar is, you know, an incredible graph, you know, incredible movie with great graphics, and there'll be other people that will pick at it and be like, ah, it's not for me. You know, it doesn't mean it's not a great movie and an effective movie and a successful movie. Um, and it's kind of the same with with, with what we do. Every TV show is not a hit. Every bit of branding that you do is not gonna be a hit. But if you can resonate with, with who you're going after and get success with them, I think that's, that's the key. And in order to do that, you just have to have a good, I think it's important just to have a good knowledge base, like of what people like in general, you know? Right. And sometimes it takes research, but the more you're kind of aware and observant of like what people like, um, it makes it a lot easier.

Devin: 12:37

Yeah. And especially I think when you're working with very established brands, um, state Farm, you know, just comes to mind, uh, since you mentioned it earlier and big brands like that are so well established. I mean, you think, and I could name off Burger King McDonald's, and you can hear their jingles, you know, I can remember jingles back from the seventies and, and those kinds of things that are so well branded. But I think, uh, to your point, I think you still have to have that Don Draper<laugh> kind of, uh, magic sauce to be able to still bring them something new, something, uh, refreshing that still fits in their established brand, which is probably very different than developing something for a, a brand new brand where you kind of have wide open spaces. For example, I guess I could use, there is, you know, you and I were at the Oprah Winfrey network together and you were, you know, heavily involved in, in that rebrand or branding. And when you're branding something from just, from nothing, it's much more challenging, wouldn't you say?

Greg Neal: 13:46

Yeah, I mean, it is, and, and even with Oprah, we had Oprah, the person, which gave us a reference point. So Oprah stood for something. And, um, but it is challenging because you don't have, you're not building off anything existing, you know, unless you're completely changing the evolution of your company and you really want to just change everything about it, most of the time you're building off something that's been done before. And in the case of the Oprah Winfrey network, or even going back, I launched a network for Scripps, which at the time owned Food Network and HGTV called, called Fine Living and fine Living didn't mean anything to anyone. So we really had to create the, not just the look and the feel, but kind of like the, the manifesto for like, what this brand was. And, um, it's, for me, it was more fun. I, I liked starting stuff from scratch because, um, it's kind of, I like to paint, so, you know, it's kind of like taking a blank canvas and just creating something mm-hmm.<affirmative> and there's, there's a lot of pride when you can, when you can do it effectively.

Devin Pense: 14:54

Yeah. And I'm, I'm, I'm getting a little bit ahead of myself, so, and I want, cuz I, I want to jump into, uh, sort of the, the science behind that and, and some of the, uh, sciences, like, I'm, I'm not a scientist<laugh>, but<laugh>, it's just a trendy thing to say, right? The process. The process, yeah. I want to get into that, but let's, let's go back a little bit. So let's talk about when did you realize, uh, you were, you enjoyed creativity or, or was it something that you discovered later in life? Um, tell us a little bit about your, your backstory there.

Greg Neal: 15:30

Well, I think, you know, I think that I was always kind of creatively inclined. Both, both my parents were, were pretty creative. Uh, my father especially, he was a, um, he was a really talented artist and drew and painted all the time and was, uh, was very good at it. But my mother also was, she liked to draw and, and, uh, she had a really good sense of humor and kind of approached things, uh, creatively. So I was kind of exposed to, um, I would say like a, a welcoming of the kind of creativity in my house. We had a lot of art books in our house. I didn't grow, I didn't grow up very, um, my family was not wealthy. I mean, we were very middle class and, and, uh, we lived in a really small house, but we did have a lot of books and, and, uh, had a lot of encyclopedias and art books and things like that. And so even when I was really young, I would, I would, you know, look at those things. And I drew a lot when I was little, so I was, um, I just liked to draw. It was something that I always enjoyed doing. And so by the time I got into grade school, you know, I was, I was one of the few kids probably that was, you know, would win like the art competitions in grade school and got chosen to, you know, to draw little posters for different things that we did. So I kind of gravitated towards doing that. Um, and it never really went away from me to be honest. I mean, I, I just kind of embraced, uh, kind of being creative and I got into high school and of course like any kind of funky creative kid you get into, you know, new wave or punk rock music and skateboarding and all that kind of stuff. And so I kind of, you know, fell in with that crowd. I mean, I did do some sports in high school, but I, uh, you know, I, that was kind of the crowd that I hung out in. And so I was kind of around it a lot. Um, I didn't know that that would be my career, to be honest. I probably wasn't even thinking about that at the time. It's just, uh, I just enjoyed, um, I just enjoyed creativity, art, drawing, music, skateboarding, that kind of stuff.

Devin Pense: 17:36

Yeah. And something else I'm, um, always curious about is the whole nature versus nurture philosophy. Yeah. Did your, did when you were at home, did, did your dad or or mom sort of sit you, you know, Hey Greg, let me, let me show you how to, you know, properly draw this or let me show you this, or you should be, you know, be a painter or did it just ha sort of happen organically just from osmosis? It just happened organically. No, they, they actually never did any of that stuff. Um, I was around it, um, but um, it was never, you know, partially probably cuz my parents weren't the those type of people. But, um, uh, but no, I think it, i, I do think that, so a lot of this is na like with people in general is nature. I think you are born, um, with inclinations towards certain things. Uh, I think some people are more naturally gifted towards artistic endeavors and I think some people are more naturally gifted, uh, towards playing music or singing or it might be, uh, the way the brain works scientifically. Like, you know, I've known people who, when they're very young, they're just very good at math, they're mathematically inclined, yet other people can draw very well when they're seven or eight years old. So, um, it could, it, you know, it could have just been the way that I, you know, I don't know. I think it, it could have just been a little bit, I was born with it and then as I started doing it more, I just started enjoying it more. So I just kept up with it kind of on my own.

Devin: 19:13

Talk about your, your, when you got into biking and skateboarding and

Speaker 3: 19:19

Yeah, I mean that, that's probably what ultimately led me into my career. I mean, I, of course, I didn't know it at the time, but, you know, I was a, I was a big skateboarder and, um, obviously that culture in general, at least at this time in the late 1980s, it was very driven by kind of re you know, rebellious, um, stereotype. And, you know, you would draw on the top of your skateboard and you would, you know, I had vans that you would paint and different colors and things like that is very much part of the kind of the skate culture and of course the music around it. And when I went off to college, I, um, I still skateboarded, but I got, I started getting into biking, freestyle biking, which, which was starting to get big at this time. This was of course before the X Games and all that kind of stuff.

Devin: 20:08

And, uh, I ended up meeting somebody that worked at a bike shop. Um, and through working with them, I started making bike videos because this is right when the contests were starting to get really popular with, you know, guys like Matt Hoffman that went on to become very famous and all these big X game athletes. And, uh, we would go to contests and videotape these guys riding on these ramps. You know, at that time they were doing, you know, five 40 s and 360 s and stuff all off this. And, and I learned how to edit by going to the local, this was in Austin to the local community. It was called a ctv, Austin Community Television. And I just started editing bike videos together and then we would sell them through the bike shop. And that's actually how I paid for the last two years of my college probably. Um,

Devin Pense: 21:04

That's interesting.

Greg Neal: 21:05

And that kind of made me, yeah, it just made me realize like, oh, this is cool. Maybe I can do this. You know, I thought I was gonna maybe go to law school. I was take majoring in government and I was like, that isn't really me. Like I don't, you know, I thought I needed to get like a proper job. And, uh, that's when I kind of, it opened my eyes that there's a career path potentially doing this.

Devin Pense: 21:27

Were you trained in, I mean, who, who taught you? Like did somebody just say, Hey, here's a camera, uh, go, you know, and, and hit this red button. Did you have a mentor? Did somebody show you how to run camera and what to do? Or is that, did that just kind of come natural as well?

Speaker 3: 21:44

Well, I've had a lot of mentors in life, but they came much later. I mean, when the, on the camera? Yeah. No, I just, I just read the manual<laugh>. I didn't know how to do it. I mean, I did, I did like photography. I had a 35 millimeter camera and, you know, I wasn't like, I would never have called myself a photographer, but I knew how to use a camera and, you know, set the F stop and the aperture and stuff like that. But these s v svhs cameras didn't even have that kind of stuff. I mean, at, at that point they were pretty much point and, uh, uh, point and record. You could change the lenses. I think we got a fisheye lens that I would pop on every once in a while if I wanted to get like a wider angle. I know

Devin Pense: 22:21

<laugh>,

Greg Neal: 22:22

But now I just, I just taught myself, I taught myself how to edit. I think. I think in order to, if I remember correctly, I think in order to edit at this local TV station, you had to get a little certification and you had to go to like a two hour tutorial class where, where the guy, you know, this was linear editing, so it wasn't even, it was before you could edit on a computer,

Devin Pense: 22:43

It's back when you could really break stuff<laugh>, you know?,

Greg Neal: 22:47

Oh yeah, you can break a lot of stuff. That's probably why they made you take the class. And so, um, yeah, so I just taught myself and, and did it. And it was, it was a lot of fun. And, and that led me to, when I graduated from college, I ended up applying for a job at a local TV station, you know, because I didn't quite know, um, I didn't quite know like, like if, you know, I didn't know anything about like, production companies or editorial houses or anything like that. I just kind of like thought, oh, well a TV station probably. Cuz I was working at the local community station, but it wasn't, no one got paid there. Um, so I ended up applying for a job at the CBS affiliate and Austin and I got an overnight job there, uh, running, being a tape operator, which basically means you're just recording news feeds that come in overnight. But it was my foot in the door. And that's kind of, that was like my first step into starting a career.

Devin Pense: 23:43

As you're getting up into the college years, I know a lot of people, uh, don't quite know what direction they're going to end up in. And sometimes you, you discover that just along the path, along the journey and, and whatever feels right and that, that sounds like what happened to you as you got into your foot into the door at the TV station. How long were you a tape op and at what point did you feel like, you know what, I I like this, I think I can, you know, oh, I see what this person's doing, or this person's over here pushing a bunch of buttons. Or at what point did you kind of start thinking, Hey, I might could do this. I can, I might could, you know, take a go at this.

Greg Neal: 24:24

Yeah, I mean, uh, I mean, you're right. I mean, when I, and this may be true for a lot of people, I I think it's right when when you're 18 to 22 you're still trying to discover. A lot of kids are still trying to discover what they want to do. I think some may know if you're going to go to law school or medical school or you know, x, y, z you may have a vision, but I think a lot of kids don't. And I knew that I was creative, which is what I enjoyed doing, but I also knew, I wasn't sure how I was gonna make money and I was very driven to like, get a job that paid money, which is why for a while I was thinking law school like, oh, I can, you know, I can get in and make money. And when this TV thing happened I kind of realized like, oh, there, there are a lot of jobs in, in this industry. And so when, uh, I, I, I remember one day this was right bef it was right before I started this job. I had just gotten out of the University of Texas where I went to school and there was a guy passing out books like on the sidewalk, like, to, it was, I don't know if it was after he was passing'em to students. I, I can't remember what the context was. I think we were exiting a class or something. And it was a book called Rogers Rules for Success. And I looked it up, it's not in print, you can still get it used, but it's not really in print anymore. But it was written by a guy who was the co-founder of Rogers and Cowan Cohen, which is a, which was a big Hollywood PR agency. And it was like one of these early kind of, maybe not early, but it was, it was, it was a book that was all about like how to be, you know, successful in life, you know, treat people with respect and, you know, and it really inspired me. I had not, at that time, I had never read a book like that. I didn't even know what any of these, um, you know, these Tony Robbins and all these kind of things that got real popular later. I, I didn't know. And so I read this book and it really had a profound impact on me because it kind of taught me to focus on being ambitious and driven and like how to be professional in settings. Things that I never had like any guidance on. You know, again, I was like a skateboarder came from a middle class family, had nobody that was like a white collar executive in my family. So this book kind of of gave me like, the drive to get started. And so when I went to work at this overnight agency, like I dressed really good. I didn't wear like a t-shirt and jeans. I wore like a button up shirt and I tucked it in and I was shaking everybody's hand and I was giving them my name. I had these little cards printed with my name on it. This was before email, but it had my name and phone number. And uh, and I just networked, and it sounds silly at a little TV station, but one of the guys that I met was the guy who was the promotions director at the TV station. And at this time I didn't even know what promotions were, but basically in the TV world promotions or sometimes it's called creative services, this, these are the departments that make the commercials that promote the newscast or promote TV shows on there. And so his team is in there writing and producing these creative little 32nd spots that promote the TV newscast. And he explained to me what they did. And uh, um, although he didn't have an opening, he, he knew someone at another small town in Texas even smaller TV station in Tyler, Texas. And he said they're looking for a creative services writer, producer, and you know, it's an entry l evel job, but I think you'd be great for it. And so I ended up going there. So I was only a t ape operator for about six months. U m, and that was kind of like my drive that got me into my thing where I was actually starting to create creative content for the first time. I was like, you know, 23 years old and shooting, you know, local TV commercials. And to me I thought I had, you know, I thought I had made it<laugh>.

Devin Pense: 28:18

Well, you, yeah, yeah. Which I, I will, I want to interject here, something that I think is super important that you touched on is, you know, we, we learn sort of different things as we kind of, you know, make our way through life, but there's certain components that need to come together in order to, to be successful, to understand how to act. And it sounds like you were very fortunate to be out on that sidewalk that day because it's, it, it's books like that or, or just things like that that sort of filled in the gaps that you needed to be able to put, you know, and you were smart enough to be able to put those, those kinds of things together. And I think that's an important point for anybody that's trying to, uh, be successful, start a company or learn something new to you. It takes multiple components to be successful at something.

Greg Neal: 29:17

It takes multiple components and it takes multiple components of recognizing what those components are. So in my case, it was getting that book and actually reading it. And again, I may, maybe I'm naive, I had never read anything like that. I had never read an advice book on career. Like I didn't even know what they were. Now. There could have been another kid just behind me that got it, that was raised in an uber successful family and had been exposed to that type of information all his life. And he may have flipped through a few pages and said, this is a joke and tossed it in the trash can. Right? So I think your, the cumulation of your experiences is just recognizing what is gonna change your path. Now if that person wouldn't have been there handing out those books, there could have been something else that could have, you know, prompted me to do, um, you know, to, to go the way that I go. But, but looking back at my age now, it, it makes me appreciate more of just living in the moment and recognizing there could have been a million other opportunities that like flashed in front of my face that I didn't pursue or recognize. But for some reason, the book I did recognize, you know, it was just like one of those things that like, I remember today I remember what the cover of it. I wish I still had it. I, uh, but I still remember what the cover of the book looked like. Now, if I read it today, I might kind of chuckle at it. I'm not sure that it's, you know, people, people might look it up and try to get it and they'll be like, this book isn't, but at the time it, it made a big impact on me and that led me to kind of seek more knowledge about like, working with people, influencing people paths to success, you know, whatever success might mean. And so

Devin Pense: 31:08

Moving, kind of moving forward down the timeline, when did you make the leap sort of out of local TV into that cable world or that next step

Greg Neal: 31:17

To be exact In time? It was 1994. It was the year 1994. But remember in the early nineties there, there wasn't a lot of cable networks at that time. There was CNN and ESPN and there were a few that were mtv, but you know, most of the, most of the television world was the big broadcast networks. And you know, I thought ultimately maybe, maybe if I worked hard, I could try to like work my way up to like a broadcast network. And when you're, at the time when you're in local tv, market size makes a difference. So back then it was being in the top 20 markets was a big deal. And those are the big cities. And then of course, every, every medium, even small markets have TV stations. So, you know, mid-size towns like Columbus, Ohio, and you know, the, they're gonna have a TV station, but it's not gonna be top 20. The top twenties were, you know, obviously New York and LA and, uh, Houston and these big cities and that's what you're shooting for. So I I, I was in Tyler in the small town, ended up back in Austin, which at the time was like market number 55. So it was medium. And I applied for a job in Phoenix, which was a top 20 market. And so, and I ended up getting the job and uh, I was so excited. I'm like, yeah, I made it to a top 20 market. Sounds so funny to say it now. And to make a long story short, my boss at In Phoenix, who was a guy I really liked, he took me to lunch one day and said, uh, hey. And I really liked him. I'd only been there about six months, seven months. And he, he, he said, Hey, I got a job. I'm leaving the station. Um, and at my heart just sank cuz he was a super creative guy. Um, he said, but I want you to come with me and my, you know, I kind of, my eyebrows arch, like, what's he talking about? He said, I've been asked to start the creative department at a new cable network called Home and Garden Television, and it's gonna be all about home decorating shows and gardening shows. And I was, first question was like, that seems kind of weird. And my second question is, where is it? And he goes, it's in Knoxville, Tennessee. And he's like, but you can move out there with me if you want. And, uh, so I had never been to Tennessee. I was like, oh man, I don't know, but I just kind of saw the writing on the wall in turn. No, of course, at that time I had no idea how big HGTV would become. And it took a long time before HGTV became the first five years, no one had even heard of it. It wasn't until about 2000 or 2001 it really started getting on the pop culture radar. Um, but, uh, I just kind of saw the writing on the wall of how the business was trending. And I, you know, I saw the popularity of the cable networks at the time getting big, how cable was rolling out, you know, in every home across America. And I thought, you know, I'm gonna take a chance and do this. And, uh, and that got me in, that got my foot in the door in, in the cable industry. And that's what I, I stayed in that for the next 15 years or more, almost 20 years after that. So

Devin Pense: 34:19

Now, weren't you, uh, weren't you like, um, employee number 12, 11 or 12?

Greg Neal: 34:25

I think I was in the top 20. I think I was like 18 or 19 or something like that. Yeah. Um, I went there before it was on the air. Um, me, there's only three of us in the creative department at the time. Me, I was a producer, there was another producer, and then Dusty who was the, the, the boss who brought me out. And we were creating all of the editing, all of the promos that would be on HGTV and, you know, creating all the on-air look and stuff. And they hadn't even built the building that we were gonna be in yet. We were working in a kind of a, kind of a warehouse type building. And if you see that facility now, I mean, it's just, you know, it's insane. It's a beautiful, you know mm-hmm.<affirmative> massive network. But it was super cool, man. We were, we were there early on and it was, um, very creative, very fun, great people.

Devin Pense: 35:10

It's interesting, I mean, and I mean obviously now to look back just the entire thing of it, and I mean, how was that, to look back and to think you were like early days? Like I know in that, in that

Greg Neal: 35:24

Space it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. I mean, of, of, again, you know, at that time we had no clue it would become what it became. And of course back then that the content wasn't quite as good. I mean, some of the TV shows were kind of laughable if you were to look at'em now. It, it also taught me another thing, like a little bit about decision making when I was in Knoxville and, you know, helping HGTV launch and again, made great friendships there. I mean, still friends with some of the people that I, that I met, you know, back in 1994, um, I, I probably was a little bit too ambitious, quite frankly, instead of enjoying and reaping kind of what we were trying to build there, because it was in Knoxville, I had my eyes set on getting to Los Angeles. And so I did everything I could after I built some good spots on my reel to try to get out and get to LA and work somewhere else, like someplace bigger, you know, in my mind. And, and I ended up doing that. I did end up leaving, um, I left on good terms. Obviously I rejoined the company later, but, um, but I left, you know, and I left for la and when I got to la the funny thing is, HGTV wasn't available in Los Angeles yet. I know it sounds weird, but back then you had to, you had to grow a cable network in homes because you'd go and sell the individual cable systems. So, you know, whatever was in LA at the time, Comcast, California or whatever, if we hadn't done a deal with them, they weren't carrying the network yet. Now it's a fully distributed network, so it's on every, you know, system in America, everywhere. But when I moved out there and started working for a los, you know, an LA based kind of, uh, creative agency, they were like, where did you come from? What's hgtv? They didn't even know. And it wasn't until a couple years later, until they even got HGTV and understood where I was working. So it didn't even, it had no cache whatsoever. Now when I tell people, they're like, oh my God, that's so cool. But they did not say that back then.

Devin Pense: 37:29

Yeah. I mean, and I think it's, uh, a point of note there, and I've always found this interesting and, and there's been times where, um, and I'd like to hear your opinion on this as, as your career began to, to blossom, I've often thought there are, you know, two types of people. There are the types of people that, that, that can sit back sort of and, and, and stay at one place, whether they enjoy it or not, maybe they do enjoy it, maybe they value a, a perceived security aspect of it. And then there are those who are more sort of startup driven or whatever. But I, I personally think just individually, at least this, this is how it's been for me in my career. I've always kind of known when my time was up somewhere and I've always felt like, I don't know it, you know, it's like I've hit a ceiling, I've hit a ceiling, and, and, and you made a great point earlier, may, you know, you made the comment about maybe I was too ambitious. I can guarantee you, you know, speaking for myself as I look back on my career, there's no doubt I made multiple mistakes in, in, at least, at least, I guess it's hard to know thinking now, how do, how do you know?

Greg Neal: 38:45

Yeah. It's, it's hard to know. And there, there's a, you know, there's a saying like winners, you know, winners never quit and quitters never win, which I, I don't agree with that saying at all. I, I, I mean, I think winners quit a lot. That's how they win. They know when to like stop and move on to the next thing. And it's funny, I think there's obviously something with perseverance and sticking with things, but success doesn't, to me at least, doesn't lie, lie in sticking to things. It lies in like picking the right thing and sticking to it, you know? So I think in some cases, as you know, Devin, and, and, and you shared earlier, um, I've had a unique career. I, I think it's unique in the sense that I have moved around a lot. I've, you know, we've, we live in our 13th house right now,<laugh>, you know, we've, that we've bought and sold, um, you know, have helped start networks in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Nashville here. Like big moves, big time moves. And, and some of'em, I look back and they were the right move. And some of them I thought they were the right move, but they maybe weren't. And with hgtv, for instance, like I was really happy I got to LA and that was an awesome time in my life, but that's one I probably could have stuck with there longer because it was the right thing. It was a really great company with a really right, with the, with the right mix. And, you know, you can't be 100% accurate, but sometimes I think your gut can tell you, like, you know, when to quit and I use the word quit, but when to make a change and when to like persevere and stick with something. And sometimes it's really hard, you know, sometimes it's really hard to do. But, um, you know, in hindsight, looking back, it, I ended up going back to the company, uh, this time helping them launch a new network called Find Living, but same ownership as hgtv and still worked with a lot of the same people. And then that parlayed to the experience at a network in Nashville called Shop at Home, which is where you and I first crossed paths, and then that parlayed into an experience in New York at Food Network, uh, again, all the same company. So I worked for that company for a long time, and I did go back to it, but, um, and in those cases, the moving around, it was picking the right thing. It was knowing how to like, stick with the right thing and then, you know, move on to the, to, to the next thing when you can. Yeah,

Devin Pense: 41:12

Yeah. But let me, let me kind of, we're again, we're kind of jumping around a little bit. I wanna go back to creativity just real quick. And you know, in, in the world you and I have kind of lived in and worked in, um, it's primarily been a, a create on demand world. Um, like you said earlier, you'll get a brief or you'll some, you'll get an idea or Hey, we, we need to promote this show, and there's nothing but the show, or there's nothing but the brief or the idea. So it's like, like a magician, like create something out of nothing and that's your job. You come to work, there's nothing there. And by the end of the day, and I'm exaggerating because it takes more than one day usually, but by the end of the day or by the end of the week, you have a completely, uh, produced spot that is ready to go out on air. Can you talk about that a little bit? Has that worn you, that creative demand, uh, create on demand? Has that worn on you over the years?

Greg Neal: 42:09

<laugh>, I, I mean, that's exactly how it is. And I, and I think that there are probably other careers that are like that too. Probably if you, you know, write for a newspaper, you gotta come in with no article at the beginning of the day, and by the end of the day you have to write something or a composer that has to create music for something and it doesn't know what they're gonna do, and they have to do it by the end of the day. Uh, for us, you know, a TV commercial or an ad that has to go out, it, it, it, we have a little bit more time at an ad agency, but when, as you know, at the, in the TV network world, sometimes stuff you, you get the assignment in the morning and it's gotta be on the air that night, you know, so you literally no joke, you have a day to do it. Um, you know, there's no doubt about it that it's, it can wear you down. Um, it takes a lot of life energy to kind of operate at the optimum level and buzz you need to do in order to get stuff done. Because you know, it, talk about living in the moment, you're very much in the moment when you have the rush of trying to get something on the air, and it's gotta be on the air that night, and you dunno what you're gonna do. So that morning you gotta find the footage and you gotta write the script and you know, it, there's a little bit of a high that you get from it, to be honest. Um, and I think you get better at it the more you do it. Like I'm, you know, I feel like I'm a pretty quick thinker now. Like, I can write scripts really, really fast if I need to.

Speaker 3: 43:43

Um, it's just because I've done it so much. I've done hundreds if not thousands of them. So, um, I don't really worry about, like, not worry, I don't, I don't really find it too hard to come up with ideas quickly, but I do feel, I, I often wonder like if there's a, if there's like a lifespan on this type of thing though, like, is there gonna be a point where like, I just can't do it<laugh>, I just can't do it anymore. The energy suck is so strong that I'm just like, oh my God, it's just a beat down. Because I'm sure you've, Devin you've been in these situations where like you have a week where you, you know, you're making a lot of changes or there's some rush orders and you gotta get stuff out and you're, you're physically tired at the end of the week. Like your, your brain and your body has just been drained from like, so much production, you know? Um, so I, I, you know, I I, I still get a thrill from it, but, um, I, I, I also think that that's probably why I've switched jobs, like the change in pace and subject matter has really helped keep it interesting, you know? Yeah. And that's what's kind of cool about an ad agency is it's not all, it's not all one topic. We're working on multiple different things, and that keeps it, that keeps it interesting.

Devin Pense: 45:06

And, and I was gonna ask you, and you, you kind of answered it, but even, even to take it maybe a little bit further, do you think you can lose the ability to be creative?

Greg Neal: 45:22

I, I don't think so. I really don't. I I think if you've got it, you've got it. I, I, I do. I mean, your, your, your creativity may evolve over time because I feel like I'm just as creative now as I was when I was, you know, 22 and, and super hungry and ambitious and, you know, consuming every bit of creative how-to information that I could. Um, I, I, I feel now I'm probably more selective over what I want to spend my energy on, but for me, I still immensely enjoy the creative process. And y you know, I, I think it was kind of a blessing and a curses probably part of the reason that I hit success, at least from a kind of a title and work status standpoint early, is I put all of my creative energy into doing creative on-air work for TV networks. And, you know, I, I went like a thousand percent for a really long time doing that. And now I, and, and I didn't pursue other outside creative interests. And now I feel like I balance my life better. I like to paint, I do a lot of paintings, you know, now, and I've picked that back up again. And I hadn't picked up a paintbrush in like 20 years, man, or maybe even more. And I used to do it all the time. I didn't, I, I started drawing again. I used to draw all the time when I was younger. And to me, that's, that's a more healthy, that's a more healthy way to, I think, keep the creative like flame going. And I, and I know that you do the same, like you, you've, you've picked up photography again, like a little bit more prolific than you used to be, and you're doing this podcast and other things that may be an outlet for you that help balance out the creative, you know, energy. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> in you

Devin Pense: 47:24

Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Yeah. I completely agree. And I'm gonna bring mental health into this sometimes. I mean, for me personally, I just didn't know there was anything else. I didn't know I, I was going so hard, like you said. And I think on one hand, I think you have to go hard. I think there's times where you, you have to grind it out and you've, you've gotta go hard. You've gotta prove yourself, you've gotta deliver and you've gotta, and that takes, as you said, that takes, you know, it's not like we're out digging ditches. Uh, but man, it sure felt like it sometimes, you know?

Speaker 3: 47:57

Well it's, it's funny you talk about mental health because I think that is, um, that's an important part of it that I didn't pay a lot of attention to earlier in my career. And because I defined myself so much by being a creative, I don't know, star is not the right word, but by being a creative, like top gun at the company, um, I took it very personally and kind of got very offended when I couldn't get things the way that I wanted to get them, you know? And that would get me to not like a job, like, well, screw this place I'm gonna leave if they're, you know, if I can't get them to appreciate, I'm gonna go take my creative, you know, energy somewhere else. And part of that was because I wasn't paying enough attention, I think, to, to just kind of being more open to different viewpoints.

Greg Neal: 48:55

It wasn't, not to say I wasn't collaborative, but I think if you're very, very creative and you're very good creatively, and I think I'm, I'm speaking generally about creatives, you know, you, you take a lot of pride in what you do and criticism. It's, some people don't let the criticism bounce off off them very well. You know, you're kinda like, well, do you know how much you know, do you know how lucky you are to have me? I just edited this thing and one day, like, you know how hard that is? Like, you know, you, you just, it when you're good at creative, like you're, you know, you're a really good photographer, you're accomplished director and editor. You can do a lot of things and people don't understand. Like, you make it look easy, but it's only easy because you've spent years and years and years making it look easy. It doesn't mean it is easy, you know? And you want people to respect that, you know? And, and the truth is people just aren't, they're not gonna get it. You know? And you gotta like learn mentally for your me, for your own mental health sake, you know, to not let that bother you. And I'm still working on that, to be honest with you. I know you've worked with me over the years and there've been some places where you've run across people and it's just infuriating the responses you get on some of the creative work that you do. And I've just learned, again, cuz you brought up mental health, like to, this sounds, this sounds a little corny, but like, I don't mean it literally, but like, kind of open, open my heart in the sense of just, it's, you can't change it. Like, you, you have to just learn how to react to things that come at you in life. So if someone's gonna, you know, criticize you or say, why did you do this? Or, I don't think he's capable of doing that. Like, you can't change the way they react or what they say, but you can change how you, how you process it. And that's helped me a lot creatively too because I don't shut down. Right. You know, when someone kind of, you know, threatens you, I guess.

Devin Pense: 50:59

Well, it is, it is very, very, very difficult and I, and I too wish I would've learned and known how to, um, as you say, like if, if you, you, you spend all day or all week editing something and somebody comes up, you know that they're not as, they're, they're not an editor. They're involved in the project somehow or whatever, but you know, they, they, they feel like sometimes they've just have to put their thumbprint on it or be involved in some way. And, and I can't, you know, I wish I would've known, you know? Then that Yeah. Those are their words, you know, and, and, and I, I wish I would've known to just let their words kind of fall to the floor, not, not that I didn't want to take responsibility. Yeah. And yeah, and that's, that's part of, that's why they call it editing, you know? I mean, right.

Greg Neal: 51:45

And it, and it's okay. It's okay that it's their words. Yeah. Because there may have been something you have said to someone not even thinking twice about it that may have had that effect on them. And you might have been surprised, like, oh my God, I didn't even know that I upset you.

Devin: 51:58

I would've never done anything like that, Greg<laugh>. Never, never.

Greg Neal: 52:02

Um, but going back to the creative process and why, why I wanted to bring that up kind of so, so forcefully is that when, when you let things like that bother you, it, it shuts you down creatively. It's hard to function creatively after that. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you know, like, I'll, I'll give an example. Like, um, and I'm, I'm, I'm kind of stealing this from like a book that I had read a long time ago, but it, it's this idea of like, you know, let's say you're in a relationship and you know, someone breaks up with you and you're just you know, you go into your apartment or wherever and you just can't function and your friends want to go out, you don't have any energy. You just have zero energy. You can't even, you can barely get up. And then let's say that same person calls back and says, you know, I'm, I've made a mistake. Like, I can't even believe how stupid will you take me back? I want to get back together. All of a sudden you have energy, you pop up, you're like, oh my God, this is the best thing. You clean your house, you shave, you get in the shower. You, you want to go tell the world? And like, where did that energy come from? Like, it, it, it, you went from nothing. And being down to like one sentence someone says to you, to energizing you, it's the same in work. There have been days where I have been in my mind disrespected or, you know, the creative isn't good enough or this or that, and I have let it put me in that apartment, you know, laying down lights off, and then you want something to kind of validate you again to like bring you back up. And the truth of the matter is, you should never get in that place in the first place when someone says something, just let it go through you. You know? And it's easier said than done, believe me. I mean, but I've gotten a lot better at it. And when I look back on my, my career, I don't, you know, it's not that I regret any, any way that I've acted towards someone, but there are times when, like, if I knew now 10 or 15 years ago, I probably would've had less stress and anxiety and things like that that, you know, that kind of probably affected, that could had the, of the ability to affect my performance on a job. So, um, I'm trying to get better at that. It's, it's, it's funny. Like it, you know, after being in this business 30 years, I'm, I'm finally coming to some enlightenment on how to handle<laugh> some of this

Devin Pense: 54:24

I heard some, somebody say something that I thought was pretty clever the o ther day, and they were saying, anybody that's over the age of 40 can write a memoir and they can, i t can all have the same title, which is how did I end up here?<laugh>. And, a nd t hat's t rue. And as we k ind o f wind up, I'll ask you that question, you know, how, how do you f eel that way? How do you, how do you feel like you've ended up, you know, where you're at a nd maybe some of your philosophies of how you've got to this point in life?

Greg Neal: 54:54

Man, that's a big, uh, that's a big question. I

Devin Pense: 54:57

Like to say the big ones for last.

Greg Neal: 54:59

<laugh>. Thank you. Yeah. Um, you know, it, it, it's funny like going back to the, the career thing, like, you know, working at the ad agency and focusing more on production than creative, I often joke with the people that I work with, like that my, that my career leading up to here is my former life because it was so different than what I do right now in many ways. You know? And I was so much more, and it's not to say that I'm not career driven and, uh, obviously I'm in a kind of a, an important, uh, role at the company and I do have a lot of things that I've gotta take care of, and I take it very, very seriously. But, um, you know, there was a long, long time just like you were explaining where I put my career, you know, very, it, you know, I don't know if I would say I put it first because, because I do have a good family and a good relationship and never had any issues there. But, um, you know, I didn't cultivate friendships. I didn't cultivate hobbies very well. Um, and I tried to, I, there were, there were times during that path where I tried to take little left turns. Like when I was at Oprah, I kind of got burned out and left and tried to go back to Austin to open a running store, you know, but then I kind of got sucked back into the TV network world and then got back into that mentality again. And it wasn't quite clicking with me. And it wasn't until I moved here. Um, and really in the past few years that I feel much more at peace with, you know, where I am right now in life and much more, I don't know, much more confident about, you know, everything that's going on. Because my resume is my resume. And when I look back, like I've worked at cool places, I've lived in a ton of great cities, I've had great positions, I've overseen really cool fun campaigns and startups at networks. And so I look at it like, you know, the next thing for me may not be in this world, you know, advertising, production, creative entertainment. It might be something completely different. And I'm still kind of trying to figure out what that is, but I'm balancing things a lot better now. Like, by which I think people, everyone should do, you know, balance it with hobbies mm-hmm.<affirmative> and balance it with, and, and you know that there are study after study after study after study that says when people go to their deathbed or when they pull people on happiness, you know, it's, it's relationships, it's, you know, in some cases it might be like health and things like that. Those are the things that rise to the top. It's not job, it's not, it's not, uh, it's not always money and things like that. And so, uh, but I think we're kind of trained early on to kind of pursue those things. And there's no doubt about it. I mean, everybody wants to make money, and you wanna make enough money to support your family and support yourself, but you shouldn't, I don't think you should do that at the expense of, you know, sacrificing your happiness and your wellbeing.

Devin Pense: 58:05

So, and that's true. And, and as we kind of wrap up here, again, like, I often think back on, you know, we've all seen the, the stick figure, uh, character of the guy on the bike of, you know, he's at point A and then down at point B, have my goals or success, and it's just this nice straight line. And then underneath, you see what it was really like, you've fallen a pit, you know, you fallen the swamp, you have to swing across a mountain. And, and, and the path is, the path is never like you think. And I think I, I do think planning things out, wishing about things, making strategic decisions, going for it, pressing on, hoping you'll end up somewhere, but nothing's ever like, you think it's going to be. And that's something I told, you know, I tried to tell my kids growing up because if you kind of live, you can kind of get in your own head. A lot of times I think and think, okay, I'm gonna get this job and it's, this is how it's gonna be, right? I'm gonna be successful. I'm gonna be making all the, you know, good money, I'm gonna this. And you get there and you realize, wait a second, there's two, 200 other people here and I've gotta work with 30 of them, them. And it's just all about balance. And like you said, um, balance and Well, and, that story right there is, is a great kind of exclamation point on what we've been talking about is, is you're not in control.

Devin: 59:36

That's right.

Greg Neal: 59:37

You know, and that's what causes people. And whether you interpret that spiritually through a religion or just kind of through your life philosophy, it doesn't matter that different people use that type of, um, saying depending on their belief systems. But at the end of the day, you can't control everything that happens in your life. And the more you try to control it, that's when unhappiness comes. When you want things, something to go a certain way and it doesn't turn out that way, and then you ruminate over it, you stress over it, you relive it, it brings you down. Life happens the way that it happens. And, you know, we can't, we're dealt a certain deck of cards. Some people are born into wealthy families, some people are born dirt poor, some people are born with, you know, certain things that may give them advantages. It just is what it is. And you have to like make the best of like the situation that comes to you. And again, it's not easier said than done, but the more I think you can embrace that, the more you'll be accepting of all the things that happen in life. So,

Devin Pense: 1:00:43

Yeah. With that, I think, um, that's a good wrap up. That's a good, good button on the end. Um, speaking of, can you, wh where can people find your art? I've seen your art, I think it's super cool. Um, where, where are you at on, uh, social media and, and uh, that kind of thing? So

Greg Neal: 1:01:01

I have a, I have an Instagram page. It's Greg underscore Neal. And then I have a website just greg neal.com. And then I have some art on there. Um, I'm probably gonna a, I'll add more art to it. I want to build a, uh, an art only, uh, website or maybe I'll just convert the greg neal.com to it. But, uh, easy enough to find me there. If anyone wants to message me, that's fine. And that's cool and, uh,

Devin Pense: 1:01:27

Awesome.

Speaker 3: 1:01:28

Easy enough to find.

Devin Pense: 1:01:29

Well man, I've really enjoyed this and I've been looking forward to having you on the groove for a long time. And glad, uh, we finally were able to, uh, carve out the time to do it and really appreciate your insights and everything you've done over your career. And, uh, just thanks for being on the groove today.

Greg Neal: 1:01:47

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed talking to you.

Devin Pense: 1:01:52

I hope you enjoyed this episode and hearing from Greg and was able to take away some good advice on how to push through the daily challenges of being a creative. Be sure to head over to the groove podcast.com to check out the show notes for all the links mentioned, and to see some of the imagery we talked about in this episode. You can find me@devinpence.com and check out some of my personal photography on Instagram at Devin Pence. That's gonna wrap it up, up for this episode. Thanks for joining me and never stop. Never give up. Always try one more time until you find your groove.